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Mark Reynolds

Gripper LSD wanted please

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As title says, Gripper wanted please.....one which needs a rebuild even better if it is the right price.

To fit inside an M56L gearbox.

 

Thanks

Edited by Mark Reynolds

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There are two possible configurations for the casings to either have a speedo ring or not. If it's to use in your V70 you don't need one with the speedo ring.

Buying one that needs a rebuild is fine as it costs about £100 but if it has the old welded casing it will need a new casing at about £400 as well as a rebuild.

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Thanks Tim, I think this will be mated to a 2.4T engine, we need to talk, was talking to Don earlier.

Getting the impression I am wasting my time and money (with limited budget) trying to tune this 2.3 T5 engine to the power I need for racing.....

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Is this the P1 2.3 T5 auto me7 that is having some bits sold on VT's facebook?

 

I personally think you should look for an earlier pre me7 car and go for a build similar to mine, but then again I am not sure what your intensions are regarding 'racing'?

 

Ryan

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Hi Ryan, yes this is the one I am stripping on facebook to prep for racing, when I say racing I mean real racing, against 300bhp - 370bhp BMW M3's (depending on the size of the owners wallet), so I need to make this thing with at least 350-375bhp to even start making it competitive in raw power performance.

Interestingly I picked up my car from Devizes......having spoke to Don who raced an S60 T5 I am assured the me7 part of this is not a problem, having spoke a little more it quickly became clear that maybe the 2.4t engine might be worth swapping into this car just because it is so simple to tune compared with the engine I have already ?

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The ME7 part is not a problem for Don as he has a mapper in his back pocket one of the main reason i switched from ME7 to throttle cable was the cost of mapping when it comes to engine/turbo changes theoretically its a new map every time at £4-500 a pop unless you can arrange a deal to keep costs for map updates down but if you are planning to fully build the car before raceing then it will just be the one map so that may not be an issue for you, on the plus side for ME7 it is very good at adapting so minor changes such as slightly larger MAF, intercooler and pipe work can just be bolted on and it will adapt

The other main reason i quit ME7 was the fkin ETM im guessing the P2 like Dons S60 is a lot better but i found the P1 ETM to be an absolute pita particularly on wot gear changes as it just wouldnt close quick enough to allow a fast gear change without bouncing the rev counter off the limiter when you press the clutch

If your going racing your going to want to compleatly refresh the engine anyway and given the cost of second hand 2.4 engines id definatly get one and spend the money refreshing that over the 2.3

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By M3's I guess you mean E46?  In my opinion power isn't the hard part to achieve, its the handling. I think you will need KW coil overs to come anywhere near and even then I don't think you'll out corner a well set up M3, after all they are supposedly 'the ultimate driving machine'.

 

Interesting that you got the car from my home town, would have taken you for a ride in mine (which has a gripper and mid 300's)! :drive1:

BTW I am with tingy on this one regarding the software not many people touch me7, mainly shark and mte?  But I guess if you build the car and do it right once, it only needs mapping once!... right? :lolbang:  

Edited by s40rch
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Yup, I only want to go there once with the engine, and not in a constant search for more power, it is E36 3 litre M3's I will be racing against in my class.......you can make up to 370bhp from that engine if your wallet is big enough.

I am going with Gaz Golds for the suspension.

I race a BMW E36 (m3 ish performance - SR20Det Turbo Engine) at the moment already, so kinda know what I need to achieve, it certainly will not be easy, but the Volvo will be super cool if we can make it work properly, my BMW is undergoing refurbishment atm while I sort out this Volvo :)

 

20160705_113753.jpg

Edited by Mark Reynolds

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I am going with Gaz Golds for the suspension.

 

 

Please don't! I am sure we can get a collection together for you NOT to have gaz golds.  :sos:   But other than that I am very interested in this build.  You can learn a lot from t5d5 as most of us have learnt from our mistakes of what not to do.

Edited by s40rch
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Would certainly be interested to hear more about this project and the progress you make.

As mentioned, power won't be too much of an issue following some advice here. Where you'll struggle against the likes of the m3 will probably be getting the car to the apex. Tyres, suspension and the gripper will take care of the exit but the entry will be where you'll be weakest imho.

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I don't mean to be negative but to be competitive on track with lighter 350BHP M3s will not be cheap, if you start adding up what you will need you're well over 10k. The regs for the class need to be the starting point and then you can plan around that. If for example the class has an upper BHP limit then with suitable hardware and mapping you can have that figure over a very wide rev range, I can for example run 350BHP from 3500RPM to 7400 and over 650Nm and still keep under a 350BHP limit.

I know on the P1 cars like 850s and V70s the Gaz golds will struggle to finish a race and still work. I've known freshly rebuilt ones not even manage to make it to a track before failing.

Before spending a lot of money on parts I'd do a lot of research on the parts for that car.

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Thanks chaps, exactly why I am here :)

Being honest here, my budget is tight.

The BMW you see above is a cheap build, and only ran around 300bhp on a good day, maybe 250bhp on a day it was leaking boost, but it was still capable of a podium or top 5 on genuine merit in the class I intend to run, and that was on BC Racing RA coilovers, and 330i discs and Yellow stuff pads, so I am used to making do with less than optimal parts I guess......this is def a project which will have nicer bits thrown on it as my wallet allows me to, I guess that means to start with I will need to put some cheaper options on the car to get going ?

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If that's the case running some carbotech pads alone is gonna give you a hard on!

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I don't doubt Tim's experiences with Gaz Gold dampers but as at least 8 British championship (last time I looked) use these dampers as standard fit they can't be all bad on a dedicated track or race car.

 

Everybody knows excess weight is the killer in motorsport so: 

 

As regards using an 850 or S70 don't disregard the C70 and regardless of which Volvo you use get the weight down (if possible within the rules) to that of the M3's your going up against, if you can't you will never match them on average race lap times all else being equal.

 

IMHO the biggest killer of the 5 pot Volvo is excessive oil temperatures and that increases for every extra BHP you have, hence the last thing you need in a 20-25 min race around British race circuits is having to back off to lower oil temps to save the engine, so going for more BHP than the BMW's to counteract any weight penalty your Volvo might carry could prove costly.

 

I doubt this would be allowed in any British tin top championship but an S40 running the same or less weight than a BMW with the 5 pot engine would be best option IMHO! 

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I am building the Estate as a BTCC replica, so the estate it is, I am capping myself at 350bhp - 375bhp because I believe that is all the power I will need, I don't want a car which is just quick in a straight line, so just aiming to shred as much weight as possible and dial in the chassis to be as good as I can get it, I am a consistent lap time driver so hopefully I can just run good average lap times, I dont expect this car to be a championship winner against the well sorted and well driven BMW's, but it will be fun, and it should be capable to beat some of the well sorted badly driven BMW's if nothing else :D

To get on track I only aiming for 300bhp to start....but to focus on chassis and brakes and diff first, Diff and Suspension being the absolute first things in fact.

Edited by Mark Reynolds

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IMHO the biggest killer of the 5 pot Volvo is excessive oil temperatures and that increases for every extra BHP you have, hence the last thing you need in a 20-25 min race around British race circuits is having to back off to lower oil temps to save the engine, so going for more BHP than the BMW's to counteract any weight penalty your Volvo might carry could prove costly.

 

 

Engineer is right on the money about oil temps! I did a track day recently temperature was about 12 degrees throughout the day and found the most I could get was about 3 laps or 6-9 mins depending on weather on not i short shifted before I had to cool down also not sure if poor Fuelling adds to high temps? But to be honest I have always had oil temp issues with both my 2.3 and 2.5 engines

I am currently running the S60R 2.5 bottom end with the oil cooler of the back of the block and standard ported polished head KW V2 suspension M66 box and gripper diff.

But my oil temps where getting up to 135 degrees very quickly i dare not go any higher! I am using shell helix ultra 10/60

 

I think Don uses a trapdoor oil pan set up so you may want to speak with him further and look in to that? there are some trapdoors out there already for these engines.

 

There is a thread on Volvospeed this guy who preps his 850 for track use a non turbo version, but has some good ideas for the oil pan have a good read of the hole thread the difference in oil to his catch can and usage in a 30 minuet race is staggering

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiV4-Ta657QAhVaF8AKHav1C74QFggdMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fvolvospeed.com%2Fvs_forum%2Ftopic%2F165380-preparing-an-850-for-track-use-and-endurance-racing%2F&usg=AFQjCNFhZf3E_2RAY6TWTDd45lYA24g5bQ&sig2=_CV_EETbXTWDi2wsjF4cQQ

 

I am also looking into the possibility of having a crank scraper as they seem to keep down oil misting which is what can create the heat. but not sure how well they really work?

I suppose the ultimate answer is to dry sump it lol there was a guy on VOC who built a full replica 850 BTCC not sure if he ever finished it? but he made a few dry sumps and am betting you would not be allowed with in your regulations?

 

Good thread by the way! and good luck with your build!

Cheers Greg

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Is a nice meaty oil cooler setup and bonnet vents not a good way to head with these cars then ?  vents on my BMW alone took 10c away from the water temps ?

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Greg, myself and most others don't compete but just drive for fun on track. Don't forget most of us that monitor oil temps are taking readings from the sump so the hottest the oil gets and not the temp it is after the cooler.

Running the radiator fan lowers water temps on track, I spent a couple of days at The Ring monitoring radiator outlet temps and found an 8c reduction with the fan on. Revving to 500RPM higher seems to raise coolant temps to by about 5-10c.

In light of the ever increasing oil temps with elevated revs on the 5 cylinder engines I choose to increase the the engine capacity and fit a more efficant turbo so that I could run at lower revs for a desired power. I've found that any less than 250BHP when exiting a corner and it feels a bit flat, that equates to about 500Nm at 3500RPM , the revs you quite often find you exit a 3rd gear corner. Exiting the same corner in second just means another gear change less than a second later so pointless.

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The oil cooler on the back of the sump from a D5 is the best way of regulating oil temps ive found propper bonnet vents would no doubt help but i just cant help but think they look sh*t but on a race car they will look spot on imo i even put the sound deadening back on my bonnet as i didnt like how much noise it made without it which im sure doesnt help with oil temps lol

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I know on the P1 cars like 850s and V70s the Gaz golds will struggle to finish a race and still work. I've known freshly rebuilt ones not even manage to make it to a track before failing.

 

I was having my Gaz Golds rebuilt approximately every 6 months.  The 3rd time I sent them in for a rebuild, the technical manager at Gaz said that they had failed because of track use.....and the 4th time I sent them in, I was told that they had failed because I was using them on the road, and that they were track-focussed shocks.

 

So basically as long as you don't drive on the road, or on track they'll work perfectly......... :whistling::popcorn:

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Is a nice meaty oil cooler setup and bonnet vents not a good way to head with these cars then ?  vents on my BMW alone took 10c away from the water temps ?

 

These cars are very susceptible to high coolant and oil temps as Tim has already pointed out.  Don's challenge car has been run flat out in endurance races so his setup clearly works well, but be very careful where you mount any remote oil cooler.  Mounting one in front of the rad pack puts more heat into the cooling system which causes a self-perpetuating problem and anything which either compromises the shrouding, or creates an area of high pressure in front of the rad pack will drastically increase your coolant temps, and by default engine oil temps too.

 

Volvo clearly had come across some cooling issues during the development of these cars - I've taken my car to 2 different specialists in F1 / WRC radiators and intercoolers, and they were both astonished at the size of the P2 radiator, given the standard output of the car.

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Greg, myself and most others don't compete but just drive for fun on track. Don't forget most of us that monitor oil temps are taking readings from the sump so the hottest the oil gets and not the temp it is after the cooler.

Running the radiator fan lowers water temps on track, I spent a couple of days at The Ring monitoring radiator outlet temps and found an 8c reduction with the fan on. Revving to 500RPM higher seems to raise coolant temps to by about 5-10c.

In light of the ever increasing oil temps with elevated revs on the 5 cylinder engines I choose to increase the the engine capacity and fit a more efficant turbo so that I could run at lower revs for a desired power. I've found that any less than 250BHP when exiting a corner and it feels a bit flat, that equates to about 500Nm at 3500RPM , the revs you quite often find you exit a 3rd gear corner. Exiting the same corner in second just means another gear change less than a second later so pointless.

 

I am not one for thrashing at the red line for no reason, so being able to content myself short shifting a little and driving on the torque shouldn't be too hard to achieve,  from all the other comments I can see I need to make a really big effort on the cooling side of things, I am considering looking to see if I can maybe squeeze a oil cooler into the inner wing......where there is a will there is a way I guess ?

What is your opinion on using a near bone 2.4 instead of trying to tweak up this old 198k mile 2.3  Tim ??

 

The oil cooler on the back of the sump from a D5 is the best way of regulating oil temps ive found propper bonnet vents would no doubt help but i just cant help but think they look sh*t but on a race car they will look spot on imo i even put the sound deadening back on my bonnet as i didnt like how much noise it made without it which im sure doesnt help with oil temps lol

 

Absolutely, I still have some proper ones left the same as I used in the bonnet of my BMW.......was worth 10c water temp to me alone.

 

I was having my Gaz Golds rebuilt approximately every 6 months.  The 3rd time I sent them in for a rebuild, the technical manager at Gaz said that they had failed because of track use.....and the 4th time I sent them in, I was told that they had failed because I was using them on the road, and that they were track-focussed shocks.

 

So basically as long as you don't drive on the road, or on track they'll work perfectly......... :whistling::popcorn:

So what are the other options ? without spending 5k ? BC racing RA's on my BMW and they have been really good tbh ? for the money anyway .......

 

 

These cars are very susceptible to high coolant and oil temps as Tim has already pointed out.  Don's challenge car has been run flat out in endurance races so his setup clearly works well, but be very careful where you mount any remote oil cooler.  Mounting one in front of the rad pack puts more heat into the cooling system which causes a self-perpetuating problem and anything which either compromises the shrouding, or creates an area of high pressure in front of the rad pack will drastically increase your coolant temps, and by default engine oil temps too.

 

Volvo clearly had come across some cooling issues during the development of these cars - I've taken my car to 2 different specialists in F1 / WRC radiators and intercoolers, and they were both astonished at the size of the P2 radiator, given the standard output of the car.

Yup, giving this some serious thought now already.......thx :)

Now has anyone found me a gripper yet ?? :D hahaha

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A 2.4 T5 is ideal but as your car only came with single VVT and not twin as on the 2.4 T5 the head wouldn't be ideal unless you ran a management system that can control it. It will still run ok but without using the inlet VVT you won't get as wide a power band. A 2.4 T5 bottom end wouldn't need uprated rods so possibly just new rings to refresh it. Being 3.2mm longer throw crank it will give the same power at slightly lower revs. I've found 3.2-3.3Bar of oil pressure is the absolute minimum at WOT on track. Gregs for example on his video was 4-5.5Bar so still nowhere near the danger point. With his external oil cooler years ago he dropped to under 3 Bar, that isn't wise.

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Most of us run BC's, mainly because they are almost as good as KW's, possibly a bit hasher because we run harder springs than BC spec'd.  KW's are expensive to start but then you still have to use the shoddy standard top mounts which go through your bonnet if you're not careful (same as gaz gold), the rebuild cost of KW's is also expensive however they are built to a higher quality.  BC is a good compromise I would recommend them to anyone.

 

Regarding a gripper, you wont find one on the second hand market that works, I would suggest talking to Tim about a new one.  As for power and cooling, for your target power I think you're going to have to spend a fortune to keep 350bhp cool for extended periods of track use, if you have 10k to throw at it you might do it :lolbang:

 

Ryan

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Most of us run BC's, mainly because they are almost as good as KW's, possibly a bit hasher because we run harder springs than BC spec'd.  KW's are expensive to start but then you still have to use the shoddy standard top mounts which go through your bonnet if you're not careful (same as gaz gold), the rebuild cost of KW's is also expensive however they are built to a higher quality.  BC is a good compromise I would recommend them to anyone.

 

Regarding a gripper, you wont find one on the second hand market that works, I would suggest talking to Tim about a new one.  As for power and cooling, for your target power I think you're going to have to spend a fortune to keep 350bhp cool for extended periods of track use, if you have 10k to throw at it you might do it :lolbang:

 

Ryan

Hi Ryan

 

With regards to KW if you fit them your self they have a 2 year warranty if you have them fitted by installed at one of the KW specialist dealers they come with a 5 year warranty and are guaranteed 100% rust-free and have an unlimited life time under all weather conditions. All parts are designed for long term use. After a salt spray test the KW coilover struts were free of oxidation. Even after years the height adjustment will not be affected. So they say lol so there is some benefits to having them fitted by the establishment especially if you do track days!

 

With regards to the oil temps I have been looking at lots of things over the time. Last year I had the opportunity to speak to a guy who has helped in bit of development in a local car company near me.

He was kind enough to listen to me talk about something I could barely explain and he took 25 mins of reading and watching explaining what I had been looking at and said.

Regarding the tray and trap system designed and built guy made on VS. "That it might be just a bit to restrictive for the flow back into the sump for a Turbo engine and would most likely require more cut outs in it but all in all very good a very sound Idea and would not be a problem as he is using it in a N/A engine", he also advised If I had a windage tray and and top plate to reduce oil splashing in corners that I would need to remove some of the baffling (Not all) to get to the oil into the windage quicker.

I also asked him about crank scrapers and he said they also help to reduce misting and remove a lot of oil that gets thrown up and are used in a lot of modern high performance engines.

 

If I had the cash I would try these mods as I am betting all combine together it would aid oil temps massively?

But its just my opinion and I don't have loads of cash so its just a pipe dream lol

 

Cheers Greg

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