109 replies to this topic

[bonelorry]

 Sir Drivealot, on Aug 4 2008, 12:34 AM, said:

They're all unfinished projects. Mine, Tim's, Tony's, Irf's, That's the nature of the game.

I wouldn't say you've bought a "fuckup" but what it looks like it that it needs a little attention to properly achieve it's true performance.

I doubt you'd need to get a re-map, just by the way VT worked. You've probably got a "standard" RICA 340 which should work fine on a 19T with greens as that's what it was designed to run on.

by the way cheers for all this help i really had no idea, so if i look out for a set of 5 green injectors and fit them i shouldnt have to do anything else to the car?

if thats the case the next set that comes up for sale is mine

[Sir Drivealot]

 tonyt-5, on Aug 4 2008, 12:26 AM, said:

My point is why did Hamish opt for the 19t with orange injectors but yet when fitting this hybread 16t he insisted on fitting green injectors but yet managed to melt chris's engine?

Probably because he (Adam) assumed that by simply fitting greens the car (which was too lean) it would automatically be richer, not realising that if it's mapped to run stock fueling the ECU will just shorten the duty cycle and still achieve stock AFR.

Why do you think he fitted greens to mine even though Hamish had blue's on his (he was trying to make it run richer). The fueling is very complex to alter, so if putting bigger injectors on it would add more fuel, problem solved. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. I fell into the same trap when advised by Stuart Williams, he thought fitting a bigger fuel pump would make it richer. The only thing that will make it run richer is telling the ECU to run richer.

The best trick is to transpose the output of the lambda sensor so the car thinks it's running leaner than it is thus fueling properly (richer) for higher boost. (as long as the injectors/pump can deliver)

In Simon's case the car won't run richer with greens it just won't max out the fueling, so the ECU will be able to fuel correctly for the elevated boost and will no longer pull timing and cut boost. At lower RPM the greens will run exactly the same AFR as the oranges, all that will happen is they will fire shorter pulses. Hence it probably won't need any re-map as it will now be able to achieve the target AFR.

[bonelorry]

that answers my question joules  

[bonelorry]

 tonyt-5, on Aug 4 2008, 12:54 AM, said:

you could be waiting along time for a set of greens Simon but you could play it safe by fitting blue's for now

yes either way its not a problem, i can always stick a wanted ad up asking for one or the other! im guessing my v70 t5 me7 was running blues then??

[Sir Drivealot]

Call Adam at Readview. He'll have a set of blues on that burgundy ex-plod he's braking at the moment.

[Sir Drivealot]

 tonyt-5, on Aug 4 2008, 12:59 AM, said:

however If the RICA 340 was intenderd for the 19t with greens fitted then Simons car will be running lean SOOOOOO fitting Green's as intendered will be a good idea no????

Indeed.


The greens and oranges will only fuel the same up to the point where the oranges max out. From there the greens will continue fueling correctly but the oranges will give no more.

What won't happen is the greens run any richer than the oranges when they are both within their capacity. The AFR is lambda controlled, and the ECU adjusts duty cycle to ensure it's always correct. The oranges will be firing a longer cycle than the greens for any given volume of fuel though.

A quick look of the ECU's LTFT (long term fuel trim) and STFT (short term fuel trim) on diferent injectors will show this.

[Sir Drivealot]

DAMN!

That VT place has a lot to answer for!


I really didn't want to have learned all this......

[bonelorry]

 Sir Drivealot, on Aug 4 2008, 01:09 AM, said:

DAMN!

That VT place has a lot to answer for!


I really didn't want to have learned all this......

even im learning now

[PNuT]

 bonelorry, on Aug 3 2008, 11:59 PM, said:

am i right in thinking that if i did change the injectors more mapping will have to be done???

im in the simular boat at the moment, i have a mte map but have stuck a 19t onnit.... at the moment i have a set of white injectors fitted but have green to fit when i get it mapped!

my car was running 1.4 bar with the 16T fitted for as long as the poor bugger could hold onto it where as the 19T is only running at 1.2bar so im not that worried! i guess for you the important thing is the fueling for the last few rpms when running at 1.4 bar.....

however if i would be better off just sticking the green injectors in then it would be handy to know

[Engineer]

The car looks great and an interesting thread also but I would suggest some more homework on open loop as opposed to closed loop when talking and giving advice on Motronic 4.3 ECU's

[PNuT]

[pyaap]

Quote

Hi,

The Rica map sets the boost at 1.1 bar which is all the T4 will take on pump fuel. As for the fuelling we where comparing some Rica files with standard files the other day and I was horified to see that Rica did not alter the fueling ! They must believe that the adaption will fuel for the extra boost!!!!!

Now we all know that even Tim accepts that T4s are quicker than T5s , but I HAVE to dispel some of the myths in that statement.  First, a T4 can take more than 1.1bar on pump fuel, if correctly altered, a T4 can run up to 1.4bar on the standard turbo - the statement posted above does indicate that there have been no adjustments to fueling because 1.1bar is more or less the accepted 'safe' limit when using an MBC on pump fuel and nothing else.

I also sincerely hope that the poster himself does not believe that fuel adaption takes place "for the extra boost" on a T4.  When you plant your foot, the ECU goes into open loop as Engineer has eluded to; at that point, it does not give a rat's ass about fuel adaption, its solely interested in maximum power.  The main 'adaption' (I would personally not use that word) which will occur for overboost (with no fuelling adjustments) will be when the knock sensors go crazy and the ECU starts to pull timing and boost; you're already on a very slippery slope to engine damage / destruction by that point.

IMO, the main reason why unscrupulous tuners have gotten away with it for so long is that fortunately, Volvo build strong engines with lots of safeguards written into the ECU software.  Those are capable of protecting most cars from those who really have no clue about tuning.

[Tim Williams]

Wow, I went and got some food and 20 new posts appear .

To be sure you end up with suitable injectors it would in my opinion be wise to get the AFR's checked first. A dyno will do if you don't want to make any other changes on the car but bear in mind that if you pay �60 for a power run and find it is running lean then after fitting bigger injectors you will want to return for another run to see the fruits of your labour, that's another �60. It might be wise to fit an AFR gauge so that you can monitor it yourself.

Just fitting bigger injectors without checking the AFR's can result in the Lamda light be being put on, you need to know how far out the AFR's are if at all before buying any injectors. To make it even worse its always wise to have second hand injectors cleaned before fitting them. Jim il fix em .

It could be worse, it could be running on only 4 cylinders . Then you would be GREEN with envy

[Pedro Fandango]

 Tim Williams, on Aug 3 2008, 11:18 PM, said:

I have just crunched to numbers on orange injectors thats if they are flowing 100% there quoted delivery. To safely get 330BHP on a T5 you would have to have them open 146% of the time... Interesting

running 0.8bar i've had the oranges upto 99.7%

[Tim Williams]

 Pedro Fandango, on Aug 4 2008, 02:51 PM, said:

running 0.8bar i've had the oranges upto 99.7%

What turbo is that on please, as the Rica map boosts the 19T to about 1.2 bar

[Pedro Fandango]

 Tim Williams, on Aug 3 2008, 11:37 PM, said:

Between 226 and 244 but you could get more if you were to lean the mixture to a less safe level.

mine got 249bhp on a RR, guess i need a AFR gauge quite urgent lol