87 replies to this topic

[cornclose]

According to this, still not legal :-

http://www.dft.gov.u...rs/hidheadlamps

What's your view/experience of this subject ?



______________________________________________________________

I have copied this post onto first, as gives direct answer from DOT just reiterating what is stated in link above , and also Pinned as IMHO is something that alot of people have fitted/considered fitting/make assumptions, I am not making comment either way, however this is (as it stands) how things stand legally (whether people believe rightly or wrongly)

al-v70tdi, on Sep 18 2009, 10:26 AM, said:

right  ..iv just got off the fone to the dot and they say....

although as lottie says, it might not void the insurance,it IS illegal to fit hid to halogen type headlamps!.( so thats me removing mine)...you can buy headlights that are specifically built to house hid but.... YOU must TO HAVE WASH-WIPE AND EITHER SELF LEVELING LIGHTS OR SUSPENSION!...... you cant use hid in the main beam of a halogen light(as was asked before) as it was designed to be used with halogen bulbs END OF STORY!...

projectors are STILL ILEGAL if they dont have the mark on to say they were designed to be used with hid and if you get pulled and cant prove that they were, then your in for a fine and or points.

so basically, if you want hid, you have to have self leveling lights and or suspension and wash wipe plus you must buy type approved hid headlights that are designed for hid burners only!...hth

Edited by Lord B, 18 September 2009 - 12:45 .
Added copy of later post to this one for clarity

[cornclose]

Yeah, that's what most people think, but it's not what the DoT fact sheet (linked above) says.

I suppose what I'm after is some kind of confirmation that the said fact sheet is indeed 'fact'. Does anyone know if it has been superseeded by anything newer (it's dated 2006).

[Tim Williams]

Trust the government to get it wrong! If the HID bulb is of the correct type and fitted correctly then the beam pattern will not be altered, the reflector and or lens causes the beam pattern.  You will get more light bleed over due to the higher light output but the percentage of bleed over will be the same as before.

[cornclose]

I'm sure that is true Tim, but I presume it doesn't override the 'fact sheet'. I'm not thinking about this from a 'getting pulled' perspective, but knowing how insurance companies operate, doesn't fitting something which is technically illegal make your insurance null and void ?

[RobbieH]

I'm happy to be corrected but my take on this would be the last sentence:

Quote

In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above.

Simples . Not.

[y2blade]

RobbieH, on Sep 14 2009, 01:23 PM, said:

I'm happy to be corrected but my take on this would be the last sentence:

Quote

In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above.

Simples . Not.

very interesting

[RobbieH]

I've seen this sort of confusion too many times in my work in materials / product testing to various standards and regulations. The usual solutiuon is to look for the lowest demoninator; in this case that last sentence.

Also:

Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:
1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component

ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory)

In practice this means:

1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.


To me this confirms that fitting a complete unit is allowed but not adding bulbs to an existing housing.


The article highlights how slow government can be in keeping up to date with EU regulations:

The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.

However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval.


In can understand Tim's point:

If the HID bulb is of the correct type and fitted correctly then the beam pattern will not be altered, the reflector and or lens causes the beam pattern. You will get more light bleed over due to the higher light output but the percentage of bleed over will be the same as before.

But, Tim will do things correctly, as would, I hope, many of the members of this forum, but how may dickhead / chav, etc installs of perfectly good kit have we all seen? That probably accounts for the statement:

In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.

[cornclose]

I'm guessing here that a filament light being a 'point' light source has the lens and reflector designed around that. Having never seen a HID up close and in the flesh, are they more of a 'ball' of light than a 'point' of light ? And if so I presume this is the reasoning behind the beam patterns not being correct ?

[Urban Tiger]

cornclose, on Sep 14 2009, 02:01 PM, said:

I'm guessing here that a filament light being a 'point' light source has the lens and reflector designed around that. Having never seen a HID up close and in the flesh, are they more of a 'ball' of light than a 'point' of light ? And if so I presume this is the reasoning behind the beam patterns not being correct ?

Basically a filament light bulb chucks out the light everywhere which is reflected to the lens by the reflector.  You then have a fluted glass lens which directs the light to get an approximate beam pattern.

HID lights use a projector system so the light is reflected at the back of the unit and is focussed by a lens in the headlight before passing through a clear outer lens.  Projector headlights therefore have a much better light profile (better cut-off etc) than a standard headlight as the light beam is being focussed (by the inbuilt lens) rather than just directed (by the fluted outer lens).

That is how I understand them to work.  The more knowledgable will no doubt put me right before the end of the day.

[RobbieH]

acshortt5, on Sep 14 2009, 02:18 PM, said:

Basically a filament light bulb chucks out the light everywhere which is reflected to the lens by the reflector. You then have a fluted glass lens which directs the light to get an approximate beam pattern.

HID lights use a projector system so the light is reflected at the back of the unit and is focussed by a lens in the headlight before passing through a clear outer lens. Projector headlights therefore have a much better light profile (better cut-off etc) than a standard headlight as the light beam is being focussed (by the inbuilt lens) rather than just directed (by the fluted outer lens).

That is how I understand them to work. The more knowledgable will no doubt put me right before the end of the day.

Projectors don't use a lense per se. The reflector is shaped to that it both reflects and focusses the light from the source (be it a filament, arc or any other light "source").

[RobbieH]

cornclose, on Sep 14 2009, 02:01 PM, said:

I'm guessing here that a filament light being a 'point' light source has the lens and reflector designed around that. Having never seen a HID up close and in the flesh, are they more of a 'ball' of light than a 'point' of light ? And if so I presume this is the reasoning behind the beam patterns not being correct ?

Neither could be considered "point sources".


Info at:

http://en.wikipedia....-discharge_lamp

http://en.wikipedia....9_light_sources

HTH

Edited by RobbieH, 14 September 2009 - 13:53 .

[cornclose]

BruceT, on Sep 14 2009, 03:24 PM, said:

http://www.danielste...onversions.html

More reading

Thanks.

What about the law, what does it have to say on the matter? In virtually every first-world country, HID "retrofits" into halogen headlamps are illegal. They're illegal clear across Europe and in all of the many countries that use European ECE headlight regulations. They're illegal in the US and Canada. Some people dismiss this because North American regulations, in particular, are written in such a manner as to reject a great many genuinely good headlamps. Nevertheless, on the particular count of HID "retrofits" into halogen headlamps, the world's regulators and engineers all say DON'T!

The only safe and legitimate HID retrofit is one that replaces the entire headlamp—that is lens, reflector, bulb...the whole system—with optics designed for HID usage.

Pretty clear cut then if it's true. There must be thousands running round with illegal headlights. Hundreds of Volvo's. All with void insurance        

It's not a mod for me.

[RobbieH]

al-v70tdi, on Sep 14 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

hmmm.... just made a quick fone call to enquire about hid`s......if i fit them to mine, it wont make my insurance void?

so iv asked for this in writing..

I guess that's the only surefire way of sorting this out given the apparent lack of a straight answer. It's a long term mod I have been thinking about but I'd be looking to change the whole headlamp assembly rather than just banging a set of burners into an existing setup. Just need to find a suitable donor vehicle to filch em from.

[ChilledMan]

Wow that is just insane .

I put in HIDs in all my cars and I have no bleed over or such .

Correct you must reaim them and yes all my Gen1s have Projectors so I am fine there but with a 05+ headlights HID with those are better then a set of projectors.

Glad I dont live where you guys do lol

[ChilledMan]

al-v70tdi, on Sep 14 2009, 04:34 PM, said:

chilled........id love to live where you live and lick one of them frogs cos i havnt got a freekin clue what you just said?

my 98-00 cars have the ABM projectors with HIDs

my 01 with 05+ headlights has hids also

I have found that the 05 headlights acutally dispears the light better then the projectors do .